作者 主题: 对PF2规则中不清晰/争议点之处的探讨  (阅读 671 次)

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对PF2规则中不清晰/争议点之处的探讨
« 于: 2020-04-14, 周二 01:54:55 »
这个帖子主要是用来记录在PFS2团中遇到的一些因为CRB描述不清晰或是受到其他规则固有印象而产生争议的部分规则。本帖主要用途是记录此类问题的解决方案用于开团,也欢迎大佬们提出新的问题或是指正!

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Re: 对PF2规则中不清晰/争议点之处的探讨
« 回帖 #1 于: 2020-04-14, 周二 02:26:41 »
1. 再聚能(refocus)行动需要休息才能进行吗?

最初产生疑问是因为术士血统法术以及再聚能中的描述:

血统法术(Bloodline Spells)
  你的血统会赋予你血统法术,一种你血脉所独有的特殊法术。血统法术是一种聚能法术。施放一个聚能法术需要消耗1点聚能点,并且你在开始时拥有一个1点聚能点的聚能池。你在每日准备时重新填满聚能池,也可通过花费10分钟使用再聚能行动重获1点聚能点。与其他角色不同,你无需为了再聚能而去做任何特别的事情,在你血管中流淌着的力量会自动为你补充聚能点。
  聚能法术会自动升阶到你等级的一半,向上取整。聚能法术无需也无法使用法术位施展。选取专长能给与你更多聚能法术,并能提升聚能池的大小,但聚能池最大不会超过3点。关于聚能法术的完整规则在第七章的300页中给出。

再聚能(REFOCUS)
专注 探索
需求 你具有聚能池,并且自上次回复聚能点后,你至少花费了1聚能点。
你花费10分钟的工作来回复你的魔法链接。这会回复你的聚能池中1聚能点。所需做的工作会在赋予你聚能法术的职业或者能力中列出。这些工作通常可以和其他与你的聚能法术来源相关的任务结合。例如,一个善良神祇的牧师通常可以在治愈盟友的伤口时再聚能,幻术学派的法师则可能在对幻术学派鉴定魔法(Identify Magic)时再聚能。

在此之前本人和团中的其他PL都认为再聚能需要在休息的情况下进行,再聚能就类似于一种短休资源。只不过短休的时间以10分钟为单位而变得更为灵活。但PF2的规则中实际上并没有关于短休的描述,而且术士血统法术中关于再聚能的描述更类似于一种脱战回复。

本人再次查证了PF2CRB中关于再聚能行动的原文,以及再聚能的两个trait:专注(concentrate)和探索(exploration)

REFOCUS
CONCENTRATE EXPLORATION
Requirements You have a focus pool, and you have spent at least 1 Focus Point since you last regained any Focus Points.
You spend 10 minutes performing deeds to restore your magical connection. This restores 1 Focus Point to your focus pool. The deeds you need to perform are specified in the class or ability that gives you your focus spells. These deeds can usually overlap with other tasks that relate to the source of your focus spells. For instance, a cleric with focus spells from a good deity can usually Refocus while tending the wounds of their allies, and a wizard of the illusionist school might be able to Refocus while attempting to Identify Magic of the illusion school.

concentrate (trait) An action with this trait requires a degree of mental concentration and discipline.

exploration (trait) An activity with this trait takes more than a turn to use, and can usually be used only during exploration mode. 17, 234

再聚能的翻译十分准确,而专注词条只是表示了这个动作需要精神集中并没有额外的效果。 探索词条也只是声明了该行动只能用于探索模式。

从CRB中没办法找到详细的描述,只能求助于社区,在reddit中关于再聚能的讨论是比较多的,主要的声音在于神卫的圣疗能否多次使用:

How many times can you refocus in a day? Is there a limit? I searched everywhere but couldn't find anything mentioning a limit. I just want to be sure.

No limit, but your pool may shrink through the day as you can only refocus after you used at least one point.
So for example, if you have 3 points, you use 2, refocus and gain 1, you now have 2. Spend 2, refocus and gain 1, you now have 1. Spend 1, refocus and gain 1, you now have 1...

Approximately 143 times if you choose not to sleep at anytime during the day.

I think having no limit to refocuses, breaks some classes, for example at lower levels Champions lay on hand every 10 minutes, can be abused to heal over and over. My problem is druid has a similar option and cleric doesn't seem to have any option for it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just trying to double check with any other GM's here if I'm reading this wrong: The Champion's refocus is just 10 minutes which can reset their Lay on Hands? So a Champion can essentially heal 60HP per hour of undisturbed focusing/casting? It's not a huge deal, but that just seems really good for level 1 and I just want to make sure I'm not overlooking something for my new campaign?

I remember reading the Dev's response to, "so the Champion can heal the party to full between battles?" Was "Yes, that is working as intended" or something like that.

Yup, this is correct. The downside is that if you're relying on that healing (or someone else uses their focus powers a lot, like sorcerers) during an extended series of fights, like wave battles.

Yes, this is correct and intentional. Jason Bulmahn confirmed it during the game he was running on Geek and Sundry. They have added a bunch of ways to heal between encounters (medicine being the biggest) to avoid taxing the spell slots of the healers and to make players more willing to take risks and get into encounters/explore.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How do I get more? Tricky question. Unfortunately information on Focus is still partial, but what we have suggests it scales by 1 point per additional power gained. How you use the points is up to you. There are also mid-high level Sorcerer feats that allow Sorcerers to recover multiple points in the same amount of time - speculation suggests this is a Sorcerer exclusive, but Monks might have something similar. New powers are selected as class feats.

在关于短休和聚能的讨论中,大多数观点认为再聚能和医疗技能一样是需要进行短休的。
具体细节可能还要等paizo对聚能进行更多解释。

Pathfinder / Pathfinder Second Edition / Rules Discussion
Basic Blood Potency and Refocusing

在paizo官网的以上问答中,由paizo的设计师Mark Seifter解答了该问题:

These all tell you how you use the Refocus activity. The sorcerer ability is not different in that regard, it just is the broadest of them all. You are still using the Refocus exploration activity to Refocus (it's the only way to Refocus), which means you are not in an encounter, but you can do any other exploration activity you like. This is very important for timing; you still do need to take 10 minutes off encounters like the other characters to Refocus, though you can be at full tilt exploring while you do. Get into high octane adrenaline rush of encounters, and you'll need to start with your Refocus again, just like anyone else who gets interrupted while Refocusing.

术士的再聚能应用更加广泛。只要进行再聚能期间没有触发遭遇,角色可以进行除另一个再聚能以外的任何探索行动(不能同时进行术士再聚能和武僧冥想再聚能),一旦再聚能期间进行了遭遇,术士的再聚能会被打断,必须计算时间。
« 上次编辑: 2020-04-14, 周二 09:07:44 由 xiao_shi »

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Re: 对PF2规则中不清晰/争议点之处的探讨
« 回帖 #2 于: 2020-04-14, 周二 10:05:08 »
我不是来回答问题的,我是来求资源的 :em006。请问有木有pf2的规则整合文档 :em032

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Re: 对PF2规则中不清晰/争议点之处的探讨
« 回帖 #3 于: 2020-04-15, 周三 05:39:21 »
有的,但翻译的不是很完整,建议对照原文来用。俺不太清楚果园怎么上传附件,可以加Q群542480476自取chm

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Re: 对PF2规则中不清晰/争议点之处的探讨
« 回帖 #4 于: 2020-04-16, 周四 22:57:10 »
再聚能需要在探索模式中花费10分钟来执行特定的行动,而术士的再聚能比较特殊,他可以一边做别的事一边再聚能。
其实我看不到有什么争议点,你的疑问是“需不需要休息”,可是任何职业的再聚能都明确要求PC做某件事(除了术士),和休息并没有什么必然联系。
你们的争议点是不是认为可以用这10分钟来走路/探索房间/其他事情而不是去做再聚能行动里要求的事呢?

英文社区对圣疗的争论,看起来是因为觉得可以无限使用圣疗过强,这让圣武士在一级的战后恢复力惊为天人。
对于这个看法我不评价,不过看起来和再聚能本身的机制并没有什么必然联系。
« 上次编辑: 2020-04-16, 周四 22:59:50 由 炼金术士卡莉 »
不要在意这个很弱的家伙。

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Re: 对PF2规则中不清晰/争议点之处的探讨
« 回帖 #5 于: 2020-04-17, 周五 00:52:15 »
毕竟大家对文字的理解各有不同,PF2的社区讨论也相当的不够。比如神卫的再聚能要求是向你的神祇祈祷,那么这个祈祷是必须停止所有其他活动进行祈祷;还是说可以一边移动一边祈祷;还是说只要在心中祈祷,祈祷的同时可以正常的进行探索行动?

目前我们的判法是只有术士的再聚能可以正常的进行探索行动,其他职业的再聚能必须要停止所有探索行动。

另外,不管是在Reddit还是一些QQ群,很多人都认为术士的再聚能也必须停止移动老老实实坐着休息。所以在再聚能上是有争议点的,或许是大家对短休的固有观念比较深。

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Re: 对PF2规则中不清晰/争议点之处的探讨
« 回帖 #6 于: 2020-04-17, 周五 22:28:14 »
我知道了,问题在于能不能进行探索行动对吧?

介于再聚能有探索标签,我认为肯定是没法执行探索行动的,但可以做其他和职业特性有关的事,比如善良牧师可以治疗队友,而圣武士除了祈祷之外还可以为神祇服务。
至于能不能边走边祈祷,我觉得这个就要看GM自己的想法了...

至于术士,从规则字面来看,因为术士的职业特性并没有实质上取消再聚能的探索标签,因此术士也无法在再聚能时执行其他探索行动。
但在这十分钟内,除了探索行动以外的其他事,术士可以自由地执行(不像其他职业一样有限制)。


我忽然想起一件事,然后回去看了一遍。
“医疗他人”“研习法术书”这两件事,实际上都有探索标签。
也就是说按字面描述,实际上再聚能时,其他职业也是可以做探索行动的,只要满足再聚能的要求就好。
在这个情况下,看来术士是真的可以做任意一件探索行动...而其他人也不是被迫原地休息,只要做的事情符合再聚能的要求,就算是探索行动也没问题。

 :em013才发现自己一直把神卫叫圣武士,总之我说的圣武士其实是在说神卫。
« 上次编辑: 2020-04-17, 周五 22:47:20 由 炼金术士卡莉 »
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Re: 对PF2规则中不清晰/争议点之处的探讨
« 回帖 #7 于: 2020-04-18, 周六 09:18:19 »
是的,还是希望paizo能把各个职业的再聚能行动解释清楚一些。毕竟祈祷和研习魔法书这样模糊的概念实在不好界定。
如果有法师把自己的法术书抄在单词卡上一边走一边背,某种意义上也可以算是研习魔法书吧 :em021